Sandra Moore

Professor and Chair, Department of Early Childhood Education, Contra Costa College

Date of visit to Anji: April 2017, May 2019

Interview conducted on February 13, 2019

Jesse Coffino: It’s so great to see you.

Sandra Moore: You too. The wonders of technology. It took me a minute to get it together because I came up to the Early Learning Center . . . I was actually sitting in the car because it was raining so bad.

Jesse Coffino: Yeah, no, it’s right behind me. It’s coming down.

Sandra Moore: Then I realized, when I got to the ELC office, I forgot that we don’t have any cameras on our computers.

Jesse Coffino: Oh, that’s right.

Sandra Moore: So I had to get my iPad. So I’m good.

Jesse Coffino: Well, it’s great to see you.

Sandra Moore: You too. You too. I see your baby’s artwork all behind you.

Jesse Coffino: Yeah. And if you went around the house, there’s a little curatorial program. 

Sandra Moore: Oh my gosh.

Jesse Coffino: Yeah, just everywhere. You know?

Sandra Moore: What a great space for her to show her work.

Jesse Coffino: It’s everywhere. She’s so prolific. I was just looking at this, what’s behind me. And the reason I find this one so interesting is, we were looking . . . because I have just . . . I have . . . this is about two weeks’ worth of drawings for her.

Sandra Moore: Oh my gosh.

Jesse Coffino: So one night, she couldn’t get to sleep, and she had crayons and paper in bed and she was tracing her own feet, writing her name on the back and tracing her own feet, and her hands. See, three feet. Her composition is great. There’s feet, more hands. You can see the addition of coloring. Okay. More hands here. This one’s the last one, I think, she adds these little details.

What was interesting to me is that, with this one, Rose and I were going through and organizing all of her drawings, and she said, “Oh, a pattern.” And I thought, “Oh, a pattern.” And I thought she meant the pattern of a shape of a leaf or the pattern on a piece of fabric. I understood that there was this other pattern, but I didn’t think she would realize it, and moreover, I didn’t think it was in her understanding of the multiple meanings of pattern to identify the pattern I saw as such. And I said, “What do you mean?” And she pointed, she said, “See, that’s red in the inside and blue on the outside, and this one’s red on the outside and blue on the inside.”

Sandra Moore: Wow.

Jesse Coffino: So that’s, to me, that’s how these drawings on the wall are just one manifestation of a larger influence of Anji on my life as a parent, on my relationship to my daughter’s ability and expression. 

Sandra Moore: And I can’t believe she’s already four. I remember how little she was. Well, that is great. I love her artwork. I love all of that. 

Jesse Coffino: It’s great to have it around for her to see it. I know that I’d love and cherish her expression regardless of Anji Play, but really putting it where she can see it, organizing it, the intentionality, I feel like that comes from the experiences I’ve had over the last four-plus years. 

And, you know, I had some extra Anji Play materials that I put in my daughter’s school in Berkeley, and the kids are just so alive with them.

There are challenging things that are coming up with the teachers, because, for me, I had to figure out a storage solution for the materials. And with Rosie, I want Rosie to play with them. I talk to her about them all the time. She thinks, “Daddy’s in China.” And she knows that, oh, yeah, I’m going to look at other kids playing and having fun. And so it felt bad to say to her, “Sorry you don’t have them.”

So it feels good to me, but I see things emerging that are kind of . . . I want to say something, but it’s not really my place to tell teachers what to do.

Sandra Moore: Right. Wow. Well, that’s very exciting, and it’s interesting for you to be on that side of it, and with all the experiences that you’ve had, and have to hold yourself back from wanting to say certain things.

Jesse Coffino: I can see teachers going to this place where perhaps their concern for the child’s safety or concern for the child’s need is not actually what the child needs to be safe. Then, interrupting the child’s learning.

Sandra Moore: And, you know, I think the thing for us here, which is something I struggle with, too, is that the training has been, especially around language, that when you step back and you’re not engaging, that takes away from the bringing about of language. I think that’s sort of the . . . that’s that double-edged sword that I live with with this space. Because I really like the idea of stepping back, and have children figure out their own boundaries. I get the safety part of that, and them learning their own space, and coming into their own. But I do think that there’s something important about having the teachers engage in conversation. Not so much driven by the teacher, but having the opportunity for the child to explain, in the moment, kind of what they’re doing and what they’re excited about. So I go back and forth on that one.

Jesse Coffino: I think my feeling, and this is my personal opinion, would be that if there are these spaces of time where the child is playing, where the child is engaging in their own activity, if, in those spaces of time, the teacher is really listening and hearing what the children are saying, the language that they’re using, and, because of that, the teacher is really aware of what the child is thinking about or talking about, then in all of the other places, when they’re in the classroom, when they’re doing play sharing, when they’re doing play stories, when they’re transitioning, there’s a lot more role for the teacher’s language there.

And then when a teacher deploys that language or uses that language in those interactions, it’ll be more based on where the child’s language is, because they will have been seeing and listening, they will have been actively hearing where the child is. I think that the teacher’s own engagement with the child’s deep engagement is really an important part of active listening, just being present. And I’m not sure how much that is accounted for in some more proscribed approaches to interaction. And I don’t think that means that the teacher is silent on the playground. I think it’s much more strategic, and a much more limited use of language, and much more expansive use of the ears and the eyes, or the heart, hearing to see what’s going on, so that then those later interactions can be much richer, much more meaningful, and can really develop the child’s language capacity to its ceiling, like, to really go to that ceiling.

Because what you’re talking about, it’s building on what’s there, and it’s building on the direction that it’s going. But the language is naturally going to the child. So that’s what we talk about. I could be completely wrong, but that’s kind of my . . . that would be my read of kind of the Anji Play or true play answer to, “What about that aspect of language?”

So then I think there’s this other question of language, which is around the child’s social and emotional negotiation with other children, and how comfortable teachers feel about children really . . . they’re not being as much of an intermediation or a medium; that communication is taking place between children.

So that means . . . that has implications. So what does it mean? What does it mean when children are being honest with each other, and that honesty that they’re having towards each other? Can a teacher let children be honest with each other?

There are times when the needs of politeness, or society, or the group mean that there have to be rules. So, if a child yells, you know, “@#X%,” that’s not okay. And I would say, probably, as a teacher, if a child is going to say that, something’s going on, and will be aware of that child and their life or that situation.

So, I don’t know. It’s not a simple answer. It’s not a yes or no answer.

Sandra Moore: No, and I think it’s an ongoing discussion. That is not going to be something that’s ever black and white. In understanding the foundation of development, we have to be really clear that every child is different. And with what they may need, what really works well for one child might not work well at all for another child.

I just did an observation last week at a program with . . . I was observing the teacher, because she was one of our mentor teachers and we had some things going on. So I was just watching. She was explaining to me how, in her classroom, she had some children with some very high needs. There was one child who was recently determined to be on the spectrum. There was another child who had been through the foster system. He was only four, but he had already been through four placements, and his behaviors were all over the place. It was probably about five or six, mixed into a group of 19 children, that had really high needs. And the balance of what that classroom looked like and how the lead teacher needed to be attentive to all the children’s needs. One, for safety reasons, because . . .

So I think that there are bigger issues when you start looking at different populations of children, and there’s a way to walk the path so that the children who are higher-needs are able to benefit from that true play and still get the opportunity to not have somebody all over them every moment of the day.

And by the time they get to four or five, they really start getting into group play more. That becomes more appealing to them, where they want to play with groups, and they want to have more of this cooperative “you do this, I do this” sort of setting to their play.

As they get older, the rules to games where “all of us” are playing together and everybody has a role, that dynamic becomes more prominent. I think, as they get older, it makes sense to let them have their space to do what they want to do. Because when adults interfere with that, then that play looks different.

We need to learn to step back so that they can really enjoy it. And a four- and five-year-old’s idea of play and fun is not going to be my idea of play and fun, and so we need to let them do what they’re doing.

Jesse Coffino: An environment that is characterized by love will always be, first and foremost, attentive to safety. So if any one person in that environment feels unsafe, then that is addressed. So then it’s understanding what is and isn’t safe.

Sandra Moore: Right.

Jesse Coffino: So I think that part of that process, is how . . . you can only take risks when you’re safe. If that makes any sense? Otherwise, you’re in danger.

Sandra Moore: When I went to do this observation, and I can’t, you know, I can’t look at this comparatively with Anji and what they have there . . . our teachers are so overwhelmed, and so tired, and, you know, the feeling that they’re unappreciated because they don’t get paid what they’re worth. Those issues are so big with teachers that are burnt out because they’re asked to do so much in the classroom, with all the assessments they have to do, and they have to be everything in this classroom and get paid peanuts. A lot of the teachers are disgruntled and probably don’t need to be in the classroom anymore.

So I think that . . . whereas we know that that foundation of love is so important, I have to be honest, that I feel like that’s part of it that’s missing, too, that because of the way our society doesn’t really show care for children, because we don’t take care of our teachers, it’s a systemic issue.

Jesse Coffino: If the teachers don’t have the same safety, then it’s a major demand to ask them to provide safety.

Sandra Moore: And I think so many teachers don’t feel that, and it’s true, because we don’t . . . even at the Early Learning Center we’re supposed to be . . . what we teach in terms of what quality is and caring for our teachers, we don’t pay our teachers what we should be able to pay our teachers, because we just . . . the college, we can’t afford it. We don’t have the money to.

So I think that even though we know what we want to do and what’s important to do, it’s just that the system is not set up for us to support teachers the way we need to support them.

The one thing that I believe is so true is that, in order for your kids to be taken care of, the teachers have to be taken care of. It has to start there. I’ve been paying attention and looking at all the issues around this, and I just think it’s so important.

Jesse Coffino: I’ve heard from some of the programs we’ve worked with that if the teachers . . . if they don’t feel like they have the permission . . . they have to feel like they’re not responsible if something happens. They have to feel safe around the unknown. So Chelsea talks about doubt in the methodology, doubt in the child’s ability, or doubt in one’s self. So, oftentimes, doubt in one’s self is expressed as doubt in the methodology. Then the result is doubt in the child.

So if a teacher has all these other factors or conditions that aren’t allowing for that sense of safety, then, to do this, you have to remove any unnecessary boundaries, or barriers, I should say.

So if you feel like you’re in danger because, if a child gets hurt, you’re in trouble, then you can’t . . . it’s very difficult to do this. So that’s something that has to come, again, that has to do with the relationship of the system to the teacher, and the relationships and hierarchies that the system creates and fosters.

Sandra Moore: When you guys did the presentation, it’s been a couple years now, when we first had you guys come out, and I had the president come, and the vice president, everybody came, and they were at least there for a portion of the presentation, the question that we got after that was, “What does our liability look like?” You know? Because we have a culture that is very litigious. People sue. Nobody wants to be on the other end of a lawsuit.

So I think, when you think about, “Okay, I’m into this, and I think that I know that this is best for children, but what’s going to happen if a child falls off a barrel? What’s going to happen if I was right there and I saw the child on the barrel, and then the child falls off the barrel and they crack their head open, and now the parent is mad at me?” . . . Everything’s fine until everything’s not. So I think that people really do struggle with that. I think, the safety thing, we don’t do the greatest job of keeping our teachers safe so that they can keep the children safe. So I think it’s a really big picture to look at, because the foundation of Anji Play is so wonderful. It’s that other piece that we’ve got to figure out how to bring in. Which I think is the safety for the teacher. And there are so many supports that need to be around that teacher to feel good, because most teachers that I come in contact with, and this is really most teachers, for sure, don’t feel like they’re paid what they’re worth. With them not feeling like they’re paid what they’re worth, they’re always asked to do something more and something extra, which pushes them to either learn more, do more, be more responsible for . . . And at some point in time, while you’re learning more, doing more, feeling more responsible for, you have this undercurrent of resentment. And unless that’s something that’s really dealt with, you can’t possibly do what you need to do appropriately for children, because you’re feeling like, “Well, who’s going to do something for me?”

This is something that has been so important to the way we’ve rolled out the Anji Play experience at the ELC together. The workshop you did with the teachers really gave them a chance to use the materials and then talk about them together. Because we don’t often get that time to process. Because who’s going to process? Because we don’t have time and we’re not going to get paid for that. But because we tried to create a system where they can get paid for that kind of stuff, they’re open to it, they’re interested in it, and they don’t mind learning more. But they don’t want to do that for free.

Jesse Coffino: Of course not, and they shouldn’t be expected to.

Sandra Moore: And that’s the expectation in most programs. It’s like, “Okay, we want you to do this, but we don’t have money to pay you.”

Jesse Coffino: Yeah, so that’s a testament to the leadership in the college and the ELC in your department, to make that happen.

So something that I hope, I mean, I hope that I can help provide some sense of permission for the teachers by having a chance to meet with some parents, have them interact with the materials and methods. Because I think that, insofar as parents can become a part of the process at an early stage, that can relieve the burden, or could open up communication around this thing that’s happening, where the threat or the perceived threat of responsibility or blame is going to be those parents.

Sandra Moore: That’s really our next step that I’m pushing very much. What I have been talking . . . the last time Chelsea and Michell Naidoo [Director of Contra Costa College Early Learning Center] and I had a conversation, wanting to make sure that happens pretty quickly. We have a timeline that we’re working on. I want to make sure that the parents get in, and then we get those materials out. Because I’m trying to go to the next phase of this, where we can ask for more money, because the last thing I want is for us to roll out these materials, and then we don’t have enough money to continue to pay you and Chelsea, and then you guys are gone.

Jesse Coffino: We would never leave, but we would have to figure out some way to make it possible.

Sandra Moore: I was just going to say, I’m just so amazed at the work and effort that you and Chelsea have put into this. I thought about it when we were talking yesterday, and then I thought, “How are you guys affording this?” Because I always am asking Chelsea about, you know, if she’s okay. I mean, I just am so impressed with the fact that this was just so much of a passion for you guys both, that you guys basically grassrooted this whole thing, and it’s become what it’s become, which is pretty amazing. So, pat on the back to you.

Jesse Coffino: Thank you. It’s become what it’s become because our goal was really just to share what was happening in Anji, with integrity, with a commitment to understanding it, and then sharing our understanding of it with the world. So, in that process, we were able to create opportunities for people to visit, for people to learn about it. And you’re one of those people. And those people went back, and they became leaders, in their own right, in making this happen. So you could say it’s grassroots, but it’s not at all distinct or separable from the work that you guys are doing, you know, or the work that Carissa’s doing in Madison, or any one of our friends, or colleagues, or comrades, is doing in kind of sharing the message.

So one of the reasons that I’m really excited to talk to you is because you were one of those people that have had the chance to go to Anji and kind of see it up close. And so I want to talk a little bit about that.

You sent me an email response to a prompt about your earliest memories of play, and you sent a bit of a reminiscence of play as a child, tag, and hide-and-seek with your sister. When you think about play or you recall a deeply joyful memory of play as a young child, is that what comes to the fore?

Sandra Moore: Yes, I just remember, I think the memories especially took place at my grandmother’s house, where we would go outside and we would just, after school, just play all day. Everybody knew everybody. The parents knew kids. The kids . . . everybody just knew everybody. In Oakland, which is considered a not-safe place for most people, which is where I grew up, it was . . . and I didn’t grow up in a fancy area either, but it was always, in my eyes, safe. We ran the streets, we played hide-and-go-seek, just this freedom. And there were never really adults around.

When me and my sister were growing up, the house we lived in, we had a big backyard. So our play was always in the backyard. It was always this free exploration. The dogs were back there. But my parents were never back there. They knew where we were, and we knew the rules of staying within the gates, but there was so much to do within the gates, whether it was catching butterflies and putting them in a jar, or digging in the mud, or whatever it was, just the freedom of being outside.

Jesse Coffino: You’re talking about these bounded but free spaces, or outdoor spaces that still had this sense of boundary, and so kind of that safety and presence of the adult, even though they’re not there. But then there’s also this freedom to even go beyond that and to be outside with other children. I don’t know. You get the sense that there was free movement that you had.

Sandra Moore: You know, there was always so much free movement, because it was . . . at my house, if it was just me and my sister, we were in the backyard. And if we were in the front of the house, it was corner to corner. We stayed within the street. It was corner to corner. We knew who was on each corner. Then, even if we were going to the store, you went to the store, and then you’d back up from the corner, never away from our area. So it’s that invisible barrier, and, you know, “Oh, you know, you’re not supposed to go beyond there.” And we stayed within the barrier, and it was fun, and it was safe, and we had a great time.

My sister and I are still close, but one of my best girlfriends who, we went to kindergarten together, and her grandmother lived across the street from my grandmother . . . It’s amazing that we went to kindergarten together, and then her and another friend of ours, who, we kind of grew up together, we also went to kindergarten together, we all ended up going to college together. But we always, always, always, talked about how our growing-up experience at my grandmother’s house was this amazing kind of fun thing. She was always there for dinner, or we were always playing together. And we managed to stay friends throughout our whole life. And she’s still one of my best friends.

---

Sandra Moore: I found about Anji Play, I don’t know if it was Ms. Cheng’s first talk at Mills or not, when you guys were at Mills, but Intisar [Dr. Intisar Shareef] went. I had to work. Something was going on and I wasn’t able to go. She went, and she was really excited about it and told me all about it.

Then, I think as we were looking . . . we had money for a conference, and I wanted to go somewhere, and she said, “Oh, you should call Chelsea. We can go. I’m going to go to China. Maybe we can go together.” And I was actually supposed to go earlier, but Chelsea got sick and I wasn’t able to go. Then we ended up going on that trip in April. I think it was maybe two years ago in April now.

The flier sounded so interesting, because we got the flier you guys were handing out at Mills. It just sounded exciting and like, “Wow, this is what we want to be doing.” So when we got a chance to go to China, it was just amazing. I couldn’t even believe it. I thought, “Oh my god, I’m going to China.”

Jesse Coffino: So this was your first trip to China?

Sandra Moore: Yes.

---

Jesse Coffino: What were you thinking before you went to China? What were your expectations? What was going through your mind?

Sandra Moore: I was really excited to be going to China, just because it’s so far away and it’s so . . . it’s China.

I guess the thing that surprised me most, and I don’t know why it did, but you know how you think of what a place might be like before you get there?

Jesse Coffino: Of course.

Sandra Moore: I had some kind of idea. But because, most of the places, I’ve experienced some form of diversity, once I got there I wasn’t expecting that it would be so ethnically homogenous. I expected, I guess, to have some Americans there.

I’ve been the only person of color many, many places that I’ve been to, but in no way have I ever been the only person of color like I was when I was in China. So it was such a . . . it was an amazing experience because, like I said, I’ve been the only person of color in many places and had people look at me, but not the way they looked at me when I was in China, because it was like they’ve never seen a person who looked like me, which was interesting to me. It was, “Wow.”

Jesse Coffino: And how did they respond? Do you remember how children responded or how other adults responded, if you’re willing to talk about that?

Sandra Moore: Everybody was really, really excited, and really friendly, really warm. I remember the thing that really stuck out for me with the teachers was that the teachers would, even if they couldn’t say anything else, they would be able to say, “Hi, how are you?” in English. So they wanted to take pictures with me. A lot of the teachers took my picture. And once, when one of the teachers, when they were taking my picture, and I was taking a picture with two or three of them, and they were, one by one, taking pictures with me, and I said, “Okay,” I said, “come here.” And I said, “Let me take my picture with you.” And there, even with the language barrier, I could tell that they were amazed that I wanted to take their pictures, like, “Why would you want to . . . I’m not special.” Like, they were so surprised.

When we went out shopping, I remember, one of the salespeople in this store, I was looking at these scarves, and she was so excited, she wanted to take a picture with me. Then, when I took her picture, she gave me a necklace. She said, “Oh,” and she said, “Take that.” And I said, “Oh, no, no, no.” And she said, “Please, please,” and “Take it.” And she was . . . she was bowing to me. And I was trying to say, “Oh, no. I can’t.” It was just so funny. I felt so honored to be a part of their culture, as it seemed like they were honored to have me be a part of their culture.

Jesse Coffino: Did you feel disrespected in any way? Was it a disrespectful curiosity?

Sandra Moore: No. And that’s the thing. I’ve seen disrespectful before. It was just an honest . . . it was a very honest curiosity for not seeing anyone that looked like me before. I can’t remember the young lady that was there with us so often, who would be there and translate for us, Jasmine, I think. She was so sweet, and she was just so kind. I remember, we were walking and she asked me, she said, “Is it okay if I ask you a question?” And I said, “Of course.” And she’s just the sweetest young lady I’ve ever seen. I said, “Of course,” and she was kind of embarrassed, and I could tell, and she said, “Can I touch your hair?” And I said, “Sure.” And, you know, my hair was braided or something.

She very gently touched my hair and she started to smile and she said, “It’s so soft.” And I said, “Yeah.” And she was . . . it was just a new experience for her. I actually felt like . . . I mean, first of all, I’ve had people in this country inappropriately touch my hair without asking, just because they’re intrigued by it. But she was just, in a very honest way, and very sweet, and she was so kind . . . It was just really nice. I never, not one time, felt disrespected.

Jesse Coffino: Hearing you tell the story, it seems very loving. It seems like—

Sandra Moore: Oh, it was very loving.

Oh, absolutely. It was very loving. And even when, I think on the last day, Chelsea had set up a massage for us at some place, or Ms. Cheng, I think, had set it up for us. We went to the massage place, which is very different from the American style. So when we got there, there was so much talking. It wasn’t a quiet setting.

At one point in time, when my head was face down, I could hear everybody talking, and nobody was touching me. And I was . . . I turned my head and I looked to our person and I said, “Is everything okay?” And she said, “She wants to know if she can touch your hair.” And I said, “Sure.” She touched my hair, and then I heard her start to laugh, and this expression . . . but once again, in a very honest, human curiosity, kind of way. Like, “Oh my gosh.” I could just tell. Then there was somebody else who touched my hair. Before you know it, I had these three hands on my hair like this.

Jesse Coffino: It became part of the massage.

Sandra Moore: It’s part of the massage. It was fine. Then, I guess, the person who’s there to take care of us kind of told them, “Okay,” that was enough. And she said, “They said thank you.” And I said, “Tell them they’re welcome.” And that was kind of it. I totally got the curiosity. They was just . . . it was different because it was so honest and it was so pure. It wasn’t meant to be hurtful.

I think the funniest thing that happened to me is, Intisar and I had found a Starbucks, and we were so happy to find a Starbucks. Then, when she wasn’t feeling well a second day, I walked there by myself. I was getting the lay of the land and walking down the street, and there was a man who said to me as I was walking, he said, “Hi.” And I said, “Hi, how are you?” And he spoke a little bit more English.

I said, “I’m good. How are you?” And he said, “I’m doing good.” And he said, “Very beautiful.” I said, “Oh, well, thank you very much.” And he said, “Where are you from?” I said, “I’m from here.” And he started laughing so hard. He says, “No, you’re not from here.” And I say, “I am. Why do you say that?” And he says, “Oh, so beautiful. I’ve never seen anybody so beautiful.” I said, “I’m from America, from California.” He said, “Oh, I’m going to come there.” I said, “Come on.” And we kind of laughed as I continued walking down the street. But it was just so funny because he said, “Where are you from?” I said, “I’m from here.” And he just fell down laughing. It was such a nice moment.

And in the schools in Anji, I think I was really amazed by how big the schools were. And even the schools that were considered small schools, I was amazed at how big they were, and how organized they were, and how everything just seemed so . . . I can’t put together a better word than “organized.” Things were where they needed to be. But sometimes I thought, “Oh, with all this organization and structure, the way everything is, how could it be fun for the children? Because they . . .” But the children were having a great time and still being messy, and enjoying things. But they were just such beautiful environments.

I couldn’t believe, at, I think the first school we went to, I thought, “Are the children playing in a car?” The car that was outside, and they were on the inside of the car, they had their little suits on, and they were painting, and they were doing . . . and I was thinking, “Wow,” I was thinking, “we would never . . .” That would be such a hazard for us here, to have children doing it. But it was so fun. I saw children walking on top of the car, and they were having a great time. I thought, “Wow, how fun it must be to have this level of freedom,” is what I thought. When do children get paint brushes to paint a car, or to paint walls and not have somebody say . . . And I couldn’t understand any of the language, but none of it sounded like “stop,” “no,” “too much,” “don’t.” None of it sounded like it had a negative connotation. So I thought, “How wonderful to just have that level of freedom to just explore.”

And I did feel less connected to the teaching, until I saw the sharing, the play sharing. When the teachers started to support the children in what they were doing in their play. Because most of my experience with the teachers in Anji was, you know, as they quietly observed, and they all had their phones out, doing the taping and watching. It just all came together for me when the taping and watching was then put onscreen and they were talking to the children about what they were doing at that time.

I remember coming back home and telling people about Anji, the one thing I said was, “China . . . I see why China is always going to be ahead of us.” I said, “If this is how they’re starting their children off, with this level of freedom, and language development, and exploration, and care, I understand. I get it. We need to be doing something different with our children.”

And I noticed, I don’t think at any point in time I saw any children crying. From all of my visits to nine different schools, I don’t think I saw any children crying. And I thought, “That’s amazing. That’s really amazing.” Even when there was little . . . every once in a while I would notice a scuffle . . . I mean, not . . . “scuffle” is the wrong word . . . where a child might have bumped a child, or something happened with a plank or something. They would kind of look at each other, and it would be this unspoken word, like, “Okay, that was an accident. Let’s move on.” And that was it. There was no exchange of anger. There was no exchange of physical anything. It was just a look in the person’s eye, like, “I can see you didn’t do that on purpose. I’m going to go over here. You can keep going where you’re going.” I just thought, “Wow.” It just seemed so free.

There were so many things. I guess if I looked back at my pictures I would be able to be more specific. But I think one of the things, and I think I have a picture of this, was one little girl, and she was playing mostly by herself. She had set up the blocks on the side, and she started slow, and then she got the plank a little bit higher. Then she walked across. These were the boards that looked like they might have been maybe four-inch boards, four-inch-wide boards or less. And she went and she walked to the middle of the board, and then she went sideways, and then she did a split on the board. She was just looking around, and she didn’t say anything. And I’m looking at her like, “Are you kidding me?” And it was just amazing.

So she was doing the splits, and her little, small, tiny body just fit perfectly on this board. And I thought, “Okay, we have an Olympic gymnast right here.” And the way she did it with such ease made me just think about how much . . .

Part of my thing is, I don’t really believe that we’re incapable of doing things. I think that we’re capable of doing more than what we know. And it’s just that some people have exposure and some people don’t. That’s what I walked away with in China, was that those children have amazing exposure, and how wonderful it is to be able to be exposed to great materials, great freedom, and the ability to talk about what’s important to you.

Because one of the things that I talk to my students about is the fact that we have a habit of rushing children when they talk. You know, when we ask them a question and then it takes them a longer time to say what they have to say, and we get tired as adults. So an adult will say, “Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Yeah, okay. So you did this.” And the child will say, “No, but that’s not what I’m trying to say. I did this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this.” They have to tell you in 20 minutes something that really only needs to be two minutes. But that’s their process.

So, to watch children tell their play stories in a way where they weren’t rushed and they were able to get it out in its entirety, how important it was that they used 20 blocks instead of 10 blocks, and that they made it that high because it reminded them of this or that, I’m thinking, “How wonderful is that to just feel heard?” 

And for all of these children, for their bodies to occupy the space in a way that feels comfortable to them. Like, I know sometimes . . . this is a crazy example, but at my parents’ house there’s this chair, and I like to sit back on the chair so that it’s kind of tilted and it’s not on all of its legs, and it drives my mom nuts. She says, “You’re going to break that chair. You’re going to fall, and you’re going to . . .” and I’m, you know, 40 years old, and my mom is still being Mom and keeping me safe, and I still have this space of risk where, “ooh, that feels kind of good to me,” for whatever reason. But in my body, I like the way that feels, versus sitting flat on the thing. So I just think about that in comparison to children, where you do something that’s at your total comfort level, but somebody outside of your body doesn’t understand that that’s your comfort space, and you know that you’re safe because you’re in your comfort space. And I feel like that’s what that is.

Jesse Coffino: I was talking to Frances Rust, who’s researched Montessori for a long time, and I was asking her about the materials, sort of Montessori versus Anji. And she said, “You know, Montessori, you can understand that they do have these learning outcomes that are a part of them. But at the same time, you can take those things and you can make things with them. There are big Montessori materials where your body is embodying distance, and ratios, and physical principles.”

So there’s these external voices that regulate your body by saying, “Oh, that’s not okay in this space.” You know, “Don’t jump off that couch,” or “Don’t climb on top of that barrel,” or “Don’t lay on top of that thing.” But then there’s also, once you can lay on top of the thing, then there’s all this other stuff that gets to happen once you can do that. Where it’s your body saying, “I understand physics, I understand distance, I understand ratios.”

Sandra Moore: But I also had an honest fear response. I remember feeling, “Oop, I could catch you if you . . . I’ll be right here.” And knowing that that was not my role, that was a little anxiety-producing for me, because I would quite frequently look around and think, “Do you guys see what’s happening right here? There’s so many children. Are we sure that all these children are safe? Are we . . . Because I’m here, but I don’t know these children.” But, like I said, I didn’t see anybody get hurt. But it was definitely anxiety-producing, because in my mind I kept thinking, “Somebody’s going to get hurt, and I know somebody’s going to get hurt, and I’m going to be close by to catch, because I know this little one is going to fall any second now.” So definitely there was some anxiety as I saw so much.

And I think the most anxiety came from when they were building, which is so interesting to me: that they would go, and they would drag the mats. It was funny, because sometimes you’d see a child jump off something, and they had only laid down one mat. And then whoever was going to jump next would go get another mat, because they felt like they needed more cushion, and they would have this building-block effect with the mats. Then, they would climb up really high, and my heart would be palpitating, because I’m thinking, “No, they are not going to jump off of there. No, they are not.” Then, to see them jump, it’s like your heart just, like, “Oh my god, they made it. Okay. Don’t do that again.” It definitely did. It remember thinking, “Oh my god.”

But I think that was the thing that got me the most. I was amazed at their agility and ability. When they would build those structures that they would climb off of, I remember thinking, “Oh my god.” But it also would show me that they had these amazing problem-solving skills. They were able to look at something and decide, “Okay, well, we can’t do it like that, because . . .” Whatever they were . . . they had a picture in their mind already of what they were trying to do and what that should look like, and they were able to create that to meet their needs, and to just do it. I was like, “My legs and my hips hurt just watching y’all.”

Jesse Coffino: Those mirror neurons were having a physiological effect.

Sandra Moore: Absolutely, absolutely. Oh my gosh.

Jesse Coffino: What I also thought was very interesting, when you were talking about kind of the natural pace of children, and what it means to give children the space or the time, you know, there’s kind of the buzzword like “holding space,” like holding space for the children to take time . . .

One of the deepest experiences I’ve had recently, and kind of bringing the eyes of the parent of a three-year-old or a four-year-old, and having more chances to work with programs in the United States and see the way things work, was really the beauty of the transitions in Anji, how they would move from play, to then being inside, to then having lunch, to then going to the bathroom, to then napping. Things happened because there was more flexibility. The teacher had the space to make decisions about discrete time, with this anchoring hard-scheduled routine, you know, lunch, and nap, and playtime.

But there’s something that Ms. Cheng has said, “One aspect of love is waiting.” So when she says, “Love is waiting,” I always understood it to mean, like, “Okay, as a teacher you get that ache in your hip by letting those mirror neurons fire by waiting and seeing if they’re safe, if they’re okay, provided they have ladders that aren’t going to break and mats they can use.” You’re waiting . . . there’s that act of love in waiting, and, like, “Okay, I’m going to take on that anxiety to see what happens.” Then, there’s kind of the waiting around frustration.

My daughter, when she was two, I remember her trying to turn over a trike, and wanting to go in, because I said, “Oh, you can do this faster. I can go in and help you.” Right? I feel like it’s the same response to, “Can you say that faster? Can you get to your point?” I remember thinking, when Rosie was struggling with the trike, “Oh, this is the way you turn it.” And I remember waiting 10 extra seconds that felt like a minute, and she turned it over and she was happy. She felt a great sense of efficacy, and probably love for me because I was taking a video of it, and then she could look at it again and tell me how proud she was and see what she did. She could reflect, even afterwards, on what she was doing. So it’s that waiting for kids that I feel like is something that our systems of accountability don’t always afford, because they want you to move in the direction of something.

Sandra Moore: Right. And I use that very similar example about waiting, because we have . . . when we’re talking about self-help skills and children building self-help skills and just basic development skills, we, as caregivers and parents, sometimes we are in the hurry-hurry-rush mode that we’re always in, children don’t have our same time frame. So the idea that something as simple as children putting on their jackets, it’s like, we have to do that for them, because we could do it in five seconds, and we don’t really feel like waiting 15 seconds for them to put it on inside out and then figure out that it’s inside out, and then pull it out and have it the right side. We just don’t have time for that.

So having children be afforded the freedom of time is an amazing thing, to be able to finish your task. When I’m talking to students, I often equate it to what it feels like when you’re in a conversation or in a caring . . . within a relationship with someone, and you’re trying to tell a story, and the person you’re telling that story to is hurrying you, because they have to go, but you’re not finished telling your story, or whether you’re cooking and you can’t really have your cooking task complete the way you want to because you have to hurry and do this.

Time is an important factor to whoever’s in that time and space. So understanding that children are in their time and space, and having them complete a project, you know, when we pull them away . . . if you pull a child away from something they’re not done with yet, and they will have a total tantrum around that, whether it means they need to put two more blocks, or whether they need to pour one more cup of water, or whether they need to do three other last colors, or they need to make one more lap around the track, whatever it is, until they feel like they are done, that’s their time. So time is really key, and we have to realize that our time is not their time, and vice versa.

Jesse Coffino: Yeah. And I think that . . . and this kind of brings me back a little bit to Montessori, which is that Anji . . . and my daughter was in a Montessori program for a year here in San Francisco. It was a home-based program, but the director was pretty committed, and she was a pretty . . . she had a master’s degree in Montessori education, so she knew what she was doing, and it was Montessori. And I saw in Anji, you know, with self-sufficiency around self-care, around food, like using the pots and pans. There are these areas where we can create child-maintained routines and structure so that, really, the child doing that last cup of water, it’s about them fulfilling the need for the cup of water, and not doing the last cup of water because they want to push the boundary, and it being them calling the shots. Because they know that they have the freedom already; their choices are being respected. Then, the behavior that’s being communicated in the filling up the water is satisfying an intention in play, and not necessarily communicating, “You’re going to have to stop me.”

Sandra Moore: When an artist, whatever kind of artist we’re talking about, whether it’s an artist who actually does some painting, or drawing, or whether it’s a sculpture, or whether it’s a musician, or a dancer, or whatever, when you’re in the midst of creating your piece . . . I could look at your piece and say, “Oh my god, that’s beautiful. That’s amazing.” And you might say, “It’s not done.” Because even though I am seeing whatever image is being presented to me in that moment, you say, “Oh, it needs to have a few . . . In my vision, I have more highlights here.” Or, “However I hear this music, the tone is always a little bit off. I need a little bit more time on it,” even though it sounds beautiful to me. The artist knows when their masterpiece is complete.

So a child who’s playing has their masterpiece of play, and they know when their masterpiece is done. That’s it.

Jesse Coffino: And then whether or not they want you to appreciate it, whether they want to share their masterpiece, is their call.

Sandra Moore: Absolutely. Because I made the mistake before . . . I taught preschool for a long time, and I made the mistake before of looking at a child’s artwork and saying, “Oh my gosh, that’s really nice. I can see your dog is playing at the tree,” and they respond, “It’s not a dog.” I think, “Oh.” You know? “How dare you try to name my art for me.” “Okay.” They get to say what it is, what it’s not, when it’s done, when it’s a work in progress, or whatever.

Jesse Coffino: So maybe that’s part of what I’ve come to understand as the Anji Play stance, is, you ask the child what they’re drawing when they are done, you ask them what they are playing when they are done. As much as possible, you leave that space for the child to fill in.

Sandra Moore: Absolutely.

Jesse Coffino: And even for me as a parent, like you said, I probably don’t have enough toes and fingers to tell you the number of times I’ve put on a piece of Rosie’s clothing for her in the last, like, three days. As a parent, “We’ve got to get out of the door. Mom’s got to get to work. You’ve got to get to school. I’m putting those boots on.”

“Oh, look at the beautiful cloud you made.” “That’s not a cloud. That’s a,” whatever.

Sandra Moore: Exactly.

Jesse Coffino: It’s a natural . . . it’s hard. It’s an intentionality. It’s a form of intentionality that is not always possible, as much as we might try. So I could build in better transitions as a parent, or if I need to get out the door, I am going to stuff her into her jacket. 

Sandra Moore: That’s something that you learn. The more that . . . the longer you’re working with children and the longer you’re in the field, I mean, those are things that you just learn. You don’t say too much. It shouldn’t be too teacher-directed. It shouldn’t be so . . . you shouldn’t be telling them what things are. You say, “Oh, you used a lot of color. How nice is that?”

It’s not about . . . You still have teachers right now who, you could see them working with children, and they’re saying to the children, “Oh, no, you shouldn’t . . . if that’s the grass, your grass is supposed to be green.” Well, who says grass has got to be green? How come grass can’t be purple? How come the sky has to be blue? How come the sky can’t be black? It’s like allowing them to experience their exploration, however they feel free to experience it.

In my experience in Anji and my work with Anji Play, what stuck out for me most, the thing that got me the most excited about doing Anji Play, was the play sharing. I’ve been really excited to hear children explain their work. I’ve been really excited to have that concept turned on in my brain, to allow them the freedom to do what they’re doing. And I’m not in the Early Learning Center every day. But even when I walk through, the children see me, and if I get a chance, to just say, “Oh, how’s your day today?” And just listening to them explain what they did, and giving me whatever information they want to give me, and me not talking, but just listening, just listening.

Then, if there’s a break in their talking, and they’re done, I say, “Oh, well, that’s great. That’s great. It sounds like you had a great day.” So I think just that freedom to have them . . . I feel like language is just so important, and sometimes just allowing a child to be able to say what they’re going to say without correcting them: “Oh, you mean you did this?” You don’t need to be correcting them. Let them say what it is they feel and then you can move on. It’s not English 101, it’s play, and they’re four. You know?

So I think, just the experience of that freedom is what I came back with. Then, working with college students, I think the thing that excited me is that I have incorporated . . . I’m teaching a hybrid intro to early childhood class. So, one of the classes, one of the last modules that I do in that class is a play module. I have some video clips of just normal . . . I shouldn’t say “normal,” but I should say American play that we’re used to, that they have to do an observation of. Then, I have a video clip of Anji, that I have in there, that they watch. Then, I have them do a comparison of it, as I introduce this idea of true play with what Anji Play brings.

Then, just to hear the students, from their perspective, look at what we’re used to doing and what they’re used to doing, and seeing if they see anything different, and seeing if that sparks anything in them. And it’s been really interesting reading those reflections. I feel like that’s my way of kind of introducing this idea of Anji Play and true play to them, and eventually wanting to do . . . since we are doing the model Anji Play site here, wanting to do a class related to the Anji Play curriculum, and giving the introduction of having them look at things and reflect on how things are different, and you can see it.

Jesse Coffino: Because now we’re talking about future teachers that are coming out of the training you’re providing, the education you’re providing. Are there any common responses from these students when they see those videos from Anji or when they’re comparing it to other settings?

Sandra Moore: Oh, yeah. I think I may have sent Chelsea one or two, but I should send you a few so you can take a look at them. But the common theme is, “Oh my god, I was so scared when I saw what they were doing.” But then, in the end, they always say, “The children look so happy. They look like they’re having such a good time. They look like they’re really enjoying themselves.” So the thing that they always key into is, first, that fear that they feel, because the play looks risky. But they also look at the fact that the children look so incredibly happy.

So we’ve had really good discussions around that and how children in that setting, how that might grow them up differently than children who grow up in this American setting.

And I think that’s one of the questions that I have that I don’t know the answer to. With all the children who’ve been through the Anji Play system, how has it affected them, or how has the rest of their growing up experience . . . you know, maybe this is research that’s in the continuation process, but how those children may turn out differently from children who don’t have that experience in other parts. I’d love to see what that looks like.

Jesse Coffino: And that’s a question that I’d also love to answer. That’s a really perfect place to end the interview, because I like the fact that it ends with your question, which is, “Then what?” 

And I don’t really know. I know that Anji County, in terms of their ranking nationally in terms of educational outcomes for high school and middle school, they’re probably very high. But how separable that is from their economic circumstances and how educational leadership happens, their curriculum at those ages, it’s hard to disentangle what cause-and-effect is. I think that it is something that people are looking at, and there’s research that’s happening. And I do think they have been following children through their primary and secondary education that have been in Anji, because all the kids in Anji essentially have gone through this Anji Play program.

That’s a question you can raise in May in China.

Sandra Moore: Excellent. I love it.

Jesse Coffino: You can raise it here on paper in Chinese for the entire audience. They’ll read it.

Sandra Moore: I would love to. I would love to.

Return to Table of Contents